Hate to do it, but just some basics; Please acknowledge that all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators or webmaster (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable.
Please talk smack, we encourage healthy debate! BUT, You also must agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. You know the difference...
We hate spam as much as you do, but we also encourage advertisng by drivers, and teams, as well as other racing news and information websites. Feel free to place a link and/or banner in your signature or send your artwork/links to us for placement at adv@makinglaps.com.
Post anonymously or register, but only members will win random prizes periodically. We are pleased to have a great library of animated avatars, members may send a brief request of what they would like their avatar to be by emailing the bratmaster38@aol.com.
Now with all that out of the way.....Let's make some laps!
With the lower and lower car counts and the rise of SK Type Modifieds I feel the NASCAR Whelen and Whelen Southern Modified Tours should go to SK Type Modifieds. I can almost guarantee increased car counts. I also feel that the purses could drop allowing more tracks to afford hosting an event. The costs should also drop for car owners. The question is then what to do with the cars they use now. Well other than a few parts, I think, they are legal and could use the motors they run now for "Open Comp" shows.
What do you think ... take the poll below.
__________________
NASCAR MODIFIEDS...WHERE IT ALL BEGAN. LET'S REMIND NASCAR OF THEIR ROOTS.
I really don't think there is a rise of SK type Modifieds - we used to get 40 cars at stafford for a weekly race - the purse has not gone up much the cost is 10x now and they are lucky to draw 20 cars and thompson only had 11 last Thursday. There are plenty of modified cars sitting idle there is no doubt about that.
All the cars are the same except for the engines - SK engines arent affordable either but are 1/2 the price of a NASCAR tour engine - the better option is the Tour Type Modified engine rules - they allow multiple engine configurations with different weight allowances.
A crate engine is the best option for all racing - It makes me laugh when racers say the crate engines take away the ingenuity of competition - that is bull Basically everone is running a 18k crate engine now (40k if you are running the tour)- they go to the winningest engine builder of the month and lay down the money and istall it in there car. No one builds there own engine today.....
And when i say crate engine (better name should be spec engine) i mean crate engine - Leave the engine builders out of it - none of this "you have to get the engine certified from so and so for 3K". You should be able to buy a new one or a used one rebuild it yourself whatever - it is yours you payed for it. Only rule is same parts as everyone else - easy tech is the top 3 exchange the carb and intake with the bottom 3 every race and if you win 3 races it goes on the dyno and if it make more power that determine by rule it comes apart.
Thanx for all that info but I did not need it all as I know quite a bit about Modifieds. I have been around them for my entire 40 plus years of living. I know Thompson had a low car count BUT if there was no difference in all the Modifieds there would certainly be more cars. Stafford has a decent field as does Waterford and Riverhead (yes they are Tour Types I know). Thompson I don't get other than people have to work, especially in these tough economic times. They even raised the purse to what you win on the NASCAR Whelen Southern Modified Tour. Still if we could get every Modified to be on the same level the possibilities would be endless in my opinion.
You said the SK engine is expensive , BUT half the cost of a Tour motor. That's my point. There is money saved allready. I'd imagine it's less to freshen as well. The whole idea is to get costs down. Thanx for your input though and hope to see more from others.
__________________
NASCAR MODIFIEDS...WHERE IT ALL BEGAN. LET'S REMIND NASCAR OF THEIR ROOTS.
I do to believe the cost would go down, to a point. The teams would still find ways to spend the money, as with an SK you are essentially in a tighter box in a way compared to a Tour Type Mod. With that said, the WMT is already very well organized and well defined with tech, where as other TT mod series or tracks seem to be a little bit more open. There are a lot more TT mods out there than you think, spread between New England, New York, PA, and the South. Obviously the largest difference between the two types is the engine, but there are other things along with it that change. Then entire ignition system is different, different transmission and clutch, as well as having a different shock rule. It is hard to say which way is better, as they are both working formulas.
SJG, spec type motors can work if done correctly. They are a great program for someone new to the series, but not so much for someone who has a lot of time and money invested into a built motor. There also is a learning period for them to get them to the point where they are completely reliable and a good, viable option. Stafford's SK spec engine is a perfect example, they make adjustments (or should be making adjustments) every year because new issues arise. Just because a part is cheaper does not mean it is better; last year we lost an engine because of excessive valve keeper wear, something you don't really normally see. There are pros and cons to everything if you think about it.
Why should you penalize teams that have decided they want to run the touring divisions just to get a higher car count in the SKs? I'm not in any way saying that the SKs are less valuable to racing, especially here in Connecticut, but some teams have made the decision to focus on the touring division because that is what they want to run. If these teams wanted to field an SK, they would.
I think one of the biggest issues keeping SK car counts low is that you have a different set of rules between each of the three tracks. If you could take a car to Thompson on Thursday, change the rear end and run at Stafford on Friday, and change the rear and run Waterford on Saturday (for a reasonable, READ: higher, purse), you'd see significantly higher car counts at all three venues. The purse also hurts the car counts, as running for $500 to win doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Does running for $5000 to $10000 to win on the WMT make more sense? Yes, it does, even though it is still a gross money-losing proposition. I know Thompson's opening Thursday show matched a WSMT purse (which isn't anything to write home about, as it is still well below what a WMT purse is), but that was a one off deal that teams couldn't or didn't get new parts to use to go after that increased purse.
I agree with larger purses - Not sure what the difference between a tour with a different engine - still a tour just a different engine that is bought from an engine builder
Invisible you kinda missed what I was saying I believe. I'm not saying anything about punishing teans that have decided to run the Tour. I am saying that car counts are lower than EVER and fell something needs to be done with the costs. I loook at the MRS (which are much closer to the SK Type Modified) and they have full fields. I just believe the NASCAR Tours are WAY too expensive to run and should make moves towards an SK Type set of rules. If there was no "Tour" Modified EVERYONE that ran an SK would be running a Tour Type car.
__________________
NASCAR MODIFIEDS...WHERE IT ALL BEGAN. LET'S REMIND NASCAR OF THEIR ROOTS.
The purse point is a good one. But once again if you spoend $50,000 on a motor to race for maybe $10,000 to win thats a heck of an investment in the wrong direction. Now the engine cost half that amount it starts to make more sense. Perhaps it's not to move totally to SK rules, but a move towards cheaper engines then. All I know is the NASCAR Tours are not what they could be, and most tracks do not have the car counts they once did. Ask many owners why and the will say "it's too expensive". Something needs to be done.
A point was made that there are sevral Tour Type Modifieds out there. It's a great point, but the cars need to be on the track not on jack stands where several are now sitting.
__________________
NASCAR MODIFIEDS...WHERE IT ALL BEGAN. LET'S REMIND NASCAR OF THEIR ROOTS.
No, I didn't miss your point, you missed mine. Some owners would rather have the ingenuity left in the engine development, rather than have a million minute rules controlling every aspect of the engine (only for the tech shack to not be able to comprehend or tech those same rules, so they aren't followed anyway). Yes, the investment is in the wrong direction, but it is the same all the way up the ladder. A $20000 motor for $500 to win doesn't make any sense. It almost makes more sense to have the $50000 motor to run for $10000 to win. I know of a driver that chose to run a tour modified over an SK because it prices out to make more sense (and there is less senseless destruction of equipment). The MRS sounds like a good idea on paper, but when you are running for $2000 to win, with basically WMT equipment, it loses its luster, at least to me. I understand that there are no crew licenses to buy, the prices on the pit passes are a lot less (if you aren't on the WMT pre-sign list anyway), and the owner and driver fees are significantly less. However, does the MRS have the insurance that NASCAR does? Does the MRS get any races on television, which we all know is great exposure to and for sponsors, like the WMT does? Does the MRS have the purse sizes like the WMT does?
SKs are great for learning, and good for weekly racing, but their rules should not be applied to the WMT. The WMT is the big leagues of modified racing, their rules shouldn't be lowered so that you can pull cars from the SK field to fill spots, or so the SK fields can pull WMT cars to make larger fields. That concept makes no sense.
The real question is - do you want quality or quantity? I would rather have a quality race, where every team could win, rather 50 cars showing up, sending 20 home, and still only seeing six cars going for the win.
I'd rather see the days of 100 plus Modifieds showing up for the Thompson 300 and full 50 car starting field with some 50 ot more cars running a 50-lap non-qualifiers race.
I love the Whelen Modified Tour, and yes it is the top notch for Modified racing BUT I disagree that the field is all that competitive. Look at the Winners lists from the past few seasons, not alot of different names there. You have the run up fronts and then the guys who hope to miss a few wrecks and make tire money back at least.
And just a little side note, let's not forget where most of the newer drivers on the Tour have come from ..... SK Type Modifieds.
I'm sorry but I still feel that SK Type Modifieds would make more sense in the long run. Turn the Tour Types into Outlaws running Open Comp events that hav NOTHING TO DO WITH GREEDCAR.
-- Edited by WhelenModifiedTour on Monday 23rd of May 2011 07:20:35 PM
__________________
NASCAR MODIFIEDS...WHERE IT ALL BEGAN. LET'S REMIND NASCAR OF THEIR ROOTS.
I agree, the same drivers run sk races all the time - the only reason they run the tour is that they have more money than everyone else... think about this, let the sk competitors run a 4 barrel with a weight break pay a bonus for the first sk across the line (1k) an you will have a full field again - this is how the small block made it into modified racing 30 years ago. The small block saved modifieds in the 70's then the SK's saved the weekly modifieds in the 80's....
The days of seeing 50 some odd modifieds showing up anywhere are gone. They are the glory days, the days we can look back on with nostalgic, rose-tinted glasses and say "wouldn't it be great". The reality is, you have lost a majority of the innovation (either by rules or by age/death) from modified racing, and with it you have lost a large number of cars.
As far as the expense side of things, NASCAR has started to do something about that - the spec engine. It is legal on the NWMT. Are there a multitude of other things needed for the NWMT that nickel and dime a team to death? Certainly, but any touring division is going to be expensive; it comes with the territory of traveling.
Everyone will agree to disagree on this topic, but my opinion stands that SK rules should not be forced on the NWMT, just like the NWMT rules should not be forced on the SKs.
The old days of 50+ mods was when you built them from the ground up your self and you ate the labor for the love of fabricating and racing. Now you have to buy everything and in most cases even pay to have it clipped. It won't change from that until China makes a cheap affordable car that will be distributed by Walmart.
One of the reasons for low car counts is to many divisions, IMHO. Back in the day of 30+ mods & late models was that you had only two choices. Look at some of the guys that have made the less expensive divisions their careers because moving up was more expensive. While this gives them an outlet, if they had less choices then maybe some of the mod lite or TIS mod guys would have late models and some of the super LM's would have mods or late models. Not to mention X-this and that and limited this and that. Have 3 weekly classes with the same rules for all the CT tracks and the fields (and stands) would see an increase.
Also, run TIS on Sundays when most people don't have to take a half day off work. You can't get both Thursday and Friday half days unless you have a pretty good job and an understanding boss, so running TIS & SMS every week isn't possible for a lot of teams.
As for the tours, I am not sure how they will survive with the current times. They are expensive and the race dates have decreased the past few years, it costs the weekly racers extra when they are there which is a pet pive of mine and I don't find the follow the leader all that exciting for 100 laps, but that is just me. But watching It is up to the management of all 3 tracks to put their heads together so they all come out ahead, which I doubt they will ever put their differences aside, what ever they are.
Good luck to all this season.
-- Edited by spdracer19 on Tuesday 31st of May 2011 12:44:49 AM
