Stafford Tech

davepull · Crew Chief

Stafford Tech

MandyB · Stafford's Turn 1 "Princess"

Seriously, what illegal part does Woody have in that car that made him win five races this season? Who knows. All I know is that he's the 2006 (and Late Model) version of Michael Bennett last year. If the officials do find something, then they find something.

openwheelracer · Admin/Mod/Eyewitness

It's and age old arguement for sure. I've been on team's where we were tough to beat and of course in everyone else's eye's we were cheating. And I've been on team's where we were bending the rule's and got caught and of course in our eye's the officials's and other competitor's were out to get us.

IMHO, pretty much every team that is consistently a front runner on a regular basis is right on the line. In racing these day's unfortunatley money buy's most of the speed an if you don't have the right motor and chassis along with a knowledgable crew you'll most likely be a backmarker.

Do some team's cross that line? Sure they do. Does it get overlooked? You would hope not, but sometimes the evidence of it would make you think otherwise.

Date: Tue Jul 18 09:23:55 2006

Woody’s cars do not have illegal parts on them. But they were called out on a few things Sk and Late model.

1 Late model) Mixing fuel Sunoco + Power mist gives you no reading in tech so now you can add any power additive you want, just explain to the tech guy that you ran out of Power mist and you had to get Sunoco at the track.

2 SK) Left side weight, the rule is 55% Not 55.1, 55.2, 55.3, etc. The tech officials did let him go with him being too heavy. Would you know, nope! Why do you think the scales are buried in that special booth of theirs? To play favorites. They should put a big-lighted billboard on a screen so everyone can see. Like some dirt series do.

Date: Tue Jul 18 11:54:39 2006

The late model DOES NOT have illegal parts in it. There was no advantage to mixing the fuel - it just made engine problems. It came up within the readings of being legal. They won 3 races without mixing and another two without mixing so how do you figure that it was a help to them? Before anyone starts running their mouths, why don't you go to the #48 team and ask questions!

Date: Tue Jul 18 11:56:05 2006

How could you that the people who have sponsors that also sponsor the track get away with tech? Look at the #19 SK - he was DQ'd a few weeks ago - explain that one?

Date: Tue Jul 18 13:13:13 2006

When you mix Power mist and Sunoco you came up with a false reading . Now that you have your false reading you can add any power additive you like. Then comes the excuse of I usaully run powermist but I ran out and had to put sunoco in at the track.

openwheelracer · Admin/Mod/Eyewitness

Anon #1, I'm not taking sides or trying to stir the pot anymore but besides seeing a car being pushed on and off the scales looking a bit fishy, how would you know for sure if there was a discrepancy in the scale readings because they are as you said, inside the tech shack that only the official's are allowed in?

As far as the fuel deal the paticular mixing thing you spoke of is a new one on me, but I'm not saying it doesn't happen however, I applaud SMS for at least making an effort and checking it, as I know a few teams were told pre race the last few years that they couldn't use the fuel they had, compared to what I saw at other tracks where I think Nasa could have borrowed fuel from some of the teams.

WhelenModifiedTour · WMT Moderator

When a car is "dominating" they automatically become illegal to their competitors. Now I am not saying they have not found a loop-hole in the grey area of the rules, but perhaps they have also hit on something with the set-up.

It is easy to say someone is cheating, until that someone is the car you work on or route for. Suddenly when others acuse your driver of cheating, it is amazing how upset you can become.

Remember there is an unwritten rule in racing "It is only cheating when you get caught."

So far it has not been proven to be cheating. Just my two cents. -WMT-

davepull · Crew Chief

man this gets out of hand quick. I am not pointing at a single car I am pointing at tech i worked on cars for many years and at sms it is common for a competitor to be told "don't come back again with that" instead of being dqued. which to me seems really unfair to the guys that play by the rules and still finish good.

sms has always been know to play favorites. then they have been known to be hard on certain guys.

i wasn't refering to the 48 car had no idea about the fuel but since it is mentioned here is the rule from the sms rule book

20F- 15 FUEL SPECIFICATIONS -

A. Stafford Motor Speedway has instituted an approval process for all racing gasoline. The intent of this rule is to help control costs, to eliminate very expensive fuel blends and fuel additives, to prevent engine damage from untried concoctions, and to insure that the fuels used are available to all.

Only the specific fuels listed alphabetically below are permitted for use in this division for practice or competition at Stafford Motor Speedway. Any blending of fuels either of or not of the approved fuels list or use of any additives is not permitted. This list may be updated or amended from time to time.

Brand name grade of fuel

Power-Mist Race Fuels TWS

T112

Rocket Brand Racing Fuel 111L
(Formerly 76 Brand)

Sunoco Race Fuel Standard **

Supreme **

Turbo Blue Race Gas Turbo Blue Leaded

VP Racing Fuels VP 2BBL

VP C-12

**These fuels are available for purchase at the speedway.

Several testing procedures will be utilized to insure that all racers use only one of the approved fuels. Competitors are required to indicate the single approved fuel used to NASCAR officials at the time of sampling. Any and all fuel samples taken must exactly match all of the manufacturer's printed specifications for that brand and grade of fuel, or penalties will result.

so with that rule it seems to me that if any car mixes fuel there breaking the rules. and as some one posted that the 48 car was doing this then he is breaking the rules. and being allowed to do so right?

it all comes down to i think no matter who you are our what you drive if you break the rules you should be dqued.

flicka · Race Fan

If you were in tech, you would know that it was not the 48 car that was put on and off the scales but the 52 SK.

Date: Tue Jul 18 19:04:00 2006

The#19 SK was under 2600 lbs.

openwheelracer · Admin/Mod/Eyewitness

I agree with Dave P. His original post was a general statement about SMS tech and somehow the #48 LM and #52 and #19 SK teams have become the "center" of the discussion. Unfortunately for the #19 SK team they were dq'd this year so it kind of (unfairly) makes them an easy target so to speak, and I think as far as the #48 LM and #52 SK teams it comes down to what WMT stated in his earlier post that if there winning, "they have to be cheating" thing that people automatically seem to think when your having a dominant season.

Date: Tue Jul 18 20:44:25 2006

Did anyone think that the 48 LM finally got their act together this year!!! Woody is a great driver and makes his way through traffic! Tech is not playing favorites with them. They have torn down parts of the engine and can't find anything wrong. As a fan in the stands and in the pits I think it is great that they finally have a winning team with a good driver.

Date: Wed Jul 19 11:47:28 2006

The Fuel Rule about mixing was written in after it was discovered they were blending. Prior to that it was not overtly stated no blending was allowed. Until its clearly a rule its not clearly cheating.

The Weight rule is clearly written. If the 19 was DQd for weight, why wasnt the 52 DQd?

Thats where i have trouble with the rule being selectively enforced. I dont understand how you justify in case a i will apply the rule and case b i will not.

The tech shack is not off limits. One person from each team (with a podium finish) within the division can go in. Thats how someone affliated with the 19 team knew the 52 team was being allowed the finish for the same infraction that 2 weeks ago caused a dq.

Weight is black and white to me. The scales are the scales and every competitor should dial their own scales to the tracks so that when they go through tech they will pass as the track measures them. AND, the scales are always open for use. There is no excuse for being under on total or off on left side.

Anyone here have a opinion or perspective that helps me understand why one guy gets dqd on weight and the other not? I am not looking for the track favorite excuse. I am trying to understand why in a objective and fair manner.

davepull · Crew Chief

the last post was awesome. that is what i talking about the selective enfourcement of the rules.

on the fuel rule I have a question for that on If my car is running the track fuel and say I decided to switch to VP. now I drain my cell. show up to sms they test it and get false reading now what? I've already drained my cell once. do i drain it again and toss the fuel?

I also understand that the rules have to be clear. and if someone finds a flaw in the rule the shouldn't be dqued till the rule is clear.

alot of you are missed what I am pointing to. there are alot of drivers at SMS who get specially treatment. and some others that never get a break. Best Example is Mike Q. how many times has that guy been DQued? and just for kickers with the 48 car too.

Date: Wed Jul 19 17:29:09 2006

Mike Q was never DQ'd with the 48 car. He was DQ'd with his own car and with the 13 car of Hamm.

davepull · Crew Chief

Anonymous wrote:

Mike Q was never DQ'd with the 48 car. He was DQ'd with his own car and with the 13 car of Hamm.

yah he was from the may 14 2004 30 lap feture from the a sixth place finish for suspension in fraction

here's the link

http://www.yankeeracer.com/news/2004/news040514a.htm

Date: Wed Jul 19 19:45:05 2006

Changing fuels? Hmmmmm.

First I would tell SMS you are going to change. Ask them how much you need to purge (ie drain cell, lines, and change filter).

If they know what you are doing before you do it and you get permission its not cheating.

The only other possible thing is change the foam but at that point the percentage of old fuel to new fuel should be insignificant and i would think you are than obeying the letter and the spirit of the rule.

btw, the weight didnt only apply to the 52sk - waiting to here why it was okay for him to be over. there was also some judgement calls made by tech in the sk light division. anyone see the maroon feature winner (34?) go over the scales about 5 times and than also go over backwards. seems to me the rules is the rules. anyone going to offer a point of view that says we waive the rule sometimes? also heard but unconfirmed on some carb violations in that division that got waived - dont know the facts behind that one.

WhelenModifiedTour · WMT Moderator

I am just going to say this....

In EVERY division, ay ANY track this same thing happens. It does not matter if you race a dirt Late Model at a small track in Florida , a Limited Sportsman in Connecticut, or on the NASCAR Whelen modified Tour. At one point or another there will be questionable events that take place in technical inspections. Trust me, I have seen it happen as a crew member in each of the divisions I just mentioned.

While it is not fair, it is just another part of the game.

Date: Wed Jul 19 20:50:45 2006

WMT you are absolutely correct, i think the thing that causes the most controversy is the degree to which it is done when comparing track to track or even division to division within one track.

SMS is neither the poster child nor on the most wanted list. The competitiveness you seen on the track spills over outside the track and its that competiveness that causes people to challenge the rules, the officials and ruling of the officials. Its the meta-race (the race within the race).

I dont envy the officials as its a thankless job. As long as they are fair and impartial to the best of their ability thats all that matters. I think its safe to say that in almost all cases the person accusing them of playing favorites hasnt been in their shoes or heard the other side of the story. Thats why i didnt accuse them of being impartial on the weight ruling, i asked for the other perspective or piece of info that wouldnt lead me to that conclusion.

Great threads and a topic that is as old as racing itself. We can beat it to death but cant change it - which is pretty much "i agree with your last thread".

MandyB · Stafford's Turn 1 "Princess"

Anonymous wrote:

there was also some judgement calls made by tech in the sk light division. anyone see the maroon feature winner (34?) go over the scales about 5 times and than also go over backwards.

You would be right. It was indeed the 34. I heard that the car was originally a few pounds over the required weight (it was either three or five, can't remember to save my life), but apparently they got the car close enough to the weight limit.

Oh...and it was more like 50 trips over the scales rather than the 5 you said. Honestly, I don't know what was up with the scales at that point in time. It could have been said scales, it could have been the car. I don't know.

Date: Thu Jul 20 11:13:48 2006

The 48 was not DQ'd - the track made an error and it was after the news went to press.

davepull · Crew Chief

well I guess SMS reads this board. guess they booted a sk light.

Sick · Car Owner

davepull wrote:

well I guess SMS reads this board. guess they booted a sk light.

Well, bein a 1/4" low on frame height is kinda obvious.

WhelenModifiedTour · WMT Moderator

Sick, was it really that much low ? On the left side I would presume. That is really pushing it. You would almost be dragging the rail on corner entry I would think. Just my opinion though.

Sick · Car Owner

WhelenModifiedTour wrote:

Sick, was it really that much low ? On the left side I would presume. That is really pushing it. You would almost be dragging the rail on corner entry I would think. Just my opinion though.

It's a 2" frame height rule on the left front. The inspectors have a 2" diameter tube mounted sideways on a handle that they slide under the car. They'll give you the benefit of the doubt and really try and jam it in there if it's close. In the case of the car that was dq'ed, it wasn't even close. It's too bad cause it was his first podium finish.

WhelenModifiedTour · WMT Moderator

Sick I totally understand technical inspections, I have worked on everything from Hava Tampa style Late Models to Limited Sportsman and right on through to Whelen Modifieds. I just think that 1/4" low would have been dragging the frame rail on corner entry. I mean that is a BIG set-up mistake.